Forum:Pretenders
We've got seven of these Kings of Jerusalem: Mary I of England, Charles I of Austria, Victor Emmanuel III of Italy, Alfonso XIII of Spain, Ferdinand II of Aragon, Philip II of Spain, and Philip III of Spain. Every one of them lived centuries after the kingdom had fallen; it had never amounted to much at the best of times, and when the Mongols lost interest in the Middle East and all the local powers they'd bitched around were able to fight each other again, Jerusalem went down faster than Emily Pinkard. There's a boatload of dueling claims, and most people who can make one of them don't care about it, including most of the above. Also, these claims cancel each other out. For instance, Alfonso XIII and Charles I both claimed, or could have claimed, the title at the same time, so if you give it to one you exclude the other. I'm for throwing them all into the category, if we want to create it at all. Turtle Fan 23:49, January 21, 2011 (UTC) :There are several other pretender/claimants to various thrones. Every English king between Henry VI and George III claimed the French throne, for example. We might want a big ole' "Pretenders" category, and sub-cat into "Pretenders to the throne of Jerusalem", etc. TR 21:25, January 24, 2011 (UTC) :It happens in the fantasy novels, too, God knows. Isn't the term "Pretender" a bit perjorative, though? Turtle Fan 22:31, January 24, 2011 (UTC) ::From the wikipedia article: "The term in itself is not pejorative. The original meaning of the English word pretend, from the French word prétendre, means 'to put forward, to profess or claim'." So, it would appear not, or that an argument exists that it isn't, anyway. TR 22:52, January 24, 2011 (UTC) ::Also, I suppose since there are fantasy characters, we should have the OTL/Fictional Split. TR 23:01, January 24, 2011 (UTC) :::Anyone who claims the right to reign or rule over a kingdom where they don't actually exercise control, then? Or anyone whose claim is not recognized by whatever legal institutions support the monarchy? :::In the realm of fantasy I can think of Petronas, Geoffrey, and Kyot. That's enough for a fictional category, but only just. Unless there's someone from an AH. I can't think of anyone, though. Maybe Infanta Isabella of Spain. Her pretentious claim was an OTL one, too. I don't know whether she claimed the English throne herself in our timeline, though. I know her father claimed she was the rightful heir. List Let's assemble a master list of OTL pretenders. We've got the seven Kings of Jerusalem identified above. Ten English/British monarchs fall into the period TR mentioned, when they pretended to the French throne. George III also claimed to be king of the thirteen colonies seven years longer than we were willing to put up with him; not sure whether that counts. Mary Queen of Scots was pretender to the English and Irish thrones while she was in France. She dropped the claim when her first husband died and she had to leave France and return to Scotland, mainly because it really pissed off Elizabeth and her lords, and they were in position to act on their anger once the French were no longer protecting her. I also feel she never really wanted to pretend to the English throne to begin with, that Henri II and Catherine de Medici twisted her arm so they could some day force a crown union on French terms. With Francois II dead, and with him the possibility of a Valois descending from Henry VII, Catherine de Medici lost interest in playing that angle and Mary dropped her claim with some relief. Such has always been my read. :By the way, I've always thought what a wonderfully captivating premise for an AH it would be to have Francois II as a strong, healthy specimen who lived a full life and fathered a son with the Queen of Scots. Then Elizabeth dies childless and Francois and Mary's son claims the English throne. Throughout the 1590s most of the powerbrokers in England had come around to the position that they could live with a Scottish monarch who wasn't Mary, but a French one? A much harder sell. And yet here you have, plain as day, a failed English dynasty and a Frenchman with as strong a claim as the man who followed the Tudors in OTL. But the English had other options. I don't doubt the French would be willing to go to war to make good their king's claim. Spain could go either way at this point: They really hated the English, and they really hated the French. I doubt they'd sit it out altogether, though. :Damn, just thinking about it makes me wish someone would write it. Speaking of Stuarts, Charles II could have been considered pretender while the English Protectorate was in business, couldn't he? As I said above, the fantasy pretenders include Petronas, who pressed a claim to be Avtokrator of Videssos against Krispos's claim to the same title. (Legally, Petronas's claim really was much stronger; Krispos's claim was pretty much "I was the last person to see Anthimos alive, so I rifled through his pockets and took whatever I found there, including the emperorship.") There's Kyot of Unkerlant, Swemmel of Unkerlant's twin brother. Also in Derlavai, Penda of Forthweg and Swemmel-backed Beornwulf of Forthweg each accused the other of being pretender. I suspect Penda's going to end up going down as the pretender, since he's analogous to the Government of the Republic of Poland in Exile that spent the entire Cold War in London. Said government did indeed have a solid legal claim to authority, but from 1944 onward they very quickly became an increasingly unimportant footnote. There's Geoffrey. I believe Makk once said Detina would have been better if Buchan had died childless (being analogous to our only president who never married, that shouldn't be too hard to do). Avram and Geoffrey are both his nephews, one by an older sister and the other by a deceased younger brother. Detinan law says a woman can't inherit the crown, so Avram's mother can't claim it, but it's mum on whether she can pass a claim along to her sons. So Avram and Geoffrey both claim the throne and it's referred to some Council of Lords or whatever to arbitrate between the two. They rule in Avram's favor (analog to Lincoln's 1860 electoral victory, except of course that Davis wasn't his opponent) and the northern provinces cry foul. That's the stuff pretender claims are made of. As it was Geoffrey had no claim to the throne but said "Fuck that noise, I want to be king anyway." Not unlike Krispos, except that Krispos lost. That, and Krispos and Petronas were fighting over the entire empire. No one was suggesting that one could take some provinces and leave. That's all I can think of right now but there've got to be more. Turtle Fan 02:58, January 25, 2011 (UTC) :Alfonso XIII of Spain was a claimant to the French throne (so that might be a category of its own) as well as the Spanish one; Abdul Majid II; Wilhelm II, German Emperor and Crown Prince Wilhelm of Germany; Abigail Kawananakoa; Puyi, Xuantong Emperor; I guess Louis XVI and Nicky II were pretenders until it was decided they shouldn't be alive anymore. TR 03:11, January 25, 2011 (UTC) ::Nikki abdicated. Wilhelm abdicated, though he kept saying he wanted to be restored. Louis didn't abdicate but I was always given to understand that he at least accepted the dissolution of the monarchy, however grudgingly. Puyi's regent abdicated on his behalf in exchange for being allowed to keep the Forbidden City. "The Forbidden City had become theater without an audience. So why did the actors remain on stage? So they could steal the scenery." Then Puyi was restored for eleven days and he got thrown out against his will at the end of that period. He did spend the 1920s actively plotting ways to be restored, and referred to himself as Emperor on several occasions, I believe. Turtle Fan 03:57, January 25, 2011 (UTC) :::My understanding of the definition is that as long as someone somewhere is willing to say "S/he's the monarch", then you have a pretender. Even if the given monarch abdicated, there is always the possibility that some monarchist mob will hoist that person on their collective soldiers and make a mad dash for the throne, and thus, that monarch is still a pretender. TR 16:00, January 25, 2011 (UTC) ::::That's a pretty generous definition. I could say you're the rightful Sultan of Colorado and turn you into a pretender, however reluctant you might be to be implicated in something so nonsensical. At least that Joshua Norton fellow pressed the claim for the non-existent emperorship of the United States on his own behalf. Turtle Fan 16:34, January 25, 2011 (UTC) :::::Since there's never been a Sultan of Colorado, I don't think I'd count as a pretender. You could advance me as the rightful King of Poland, since there was such an office once upon a time. ::::::King of Poland it is, then. Turtle Fan 17:41, January 25, 2011 (UTC) ::::::So claiming a crown that never existed doesn't count. Very well. Is there a distinction between claiming a crown that once existed but no longer does, such as Puyi, and claiming one that exists at the time of the pretense and is worn by someone who advanced a stronger (or at least more enforceable) claim, such as Mary Queen of Scots? Turtle Fan 17:41, January 25, 2011 (UTC) :::::::From what I can tell, no: both are pretenders as both could be monarch if the circumstances were right. You are more likely to find the latter in today's world (there are people ready and willing to assume the crown in the event that France, Italy, Germany, etc. decide that this whole republic thing isn't working) than the former. There are still Jacobites, but I don't think anyone gives a flying fuck, the Jacobites included. TR 18:07, January 25, 2011 (UTC) :::::For our purposes, I think we could narrow it down a bit to those who advanced their own claim to some extent. That would drop Nicky and Louis (who seemed pretty content to wash their hands of the whole thing), but Kaiser Bill and Puyi would count, since they both wanted back in and took at least remedial steps toward that goal. TR 17:35, January 25, 2011 (UTC) ::::::That sounds like a fair standard. Turtle Fan 17:41, January 25, 2011 (UTC)